Don’t forget about my brand new podcast and let me know what you think!
It’s called Whitehall Sources. Click here to listen. This week: we get a new co-host.
This article was first published in The Stornoway Gazette.
To become a superstar on TV and social media these days, all you need to do is have a run-in with Mick Lynch. Or indeed, be Mick Lynch. He is, of course, the General Secretary of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT). His members are currently taking many days of strike action in a long-running dispute over pay rises and changes to terms and conditions. In line with the tradition of charismatic union leaders - like Bob Crow or Arthur Scargill - he has become the figurehead for public displays of disaffection.
His latest to and fro came with Richard Madeley who is, on a daily basis, a caricature of himself, I concede. Madeley harangued him over striking during “Christmas”. Mick Lynch responded that Christmas hasn’t started yet. Let’s first of all forgive the fact that Richard Madeley’s first question in the clip from the interview lasted no less than 41 seconds - which is a crime against interviewing in and of itself. Madeley accused striking workers of: “Sadism and unkindness…why couldn’t you put these strikes into January…you’re going to be putting people out of business… this is the time of year when they make their money.”
He probably had a point - we just struggled to actually alight on it. Businesses to which customers and staff cannot travel to shop and spend and eat and drink and stay and work will really struggle. Many in the hospitality industry, particularly, depend on the festive season to make the majority of their profits and carry them through quieter spells. The trade body UKHospitality said it expected the strikes to cost businesses about £1.5bn in lost sales and other knock-on effects. This is the point Madely did not make very well which left Lynch mobbed by questions of the timeline of advent. Please mind the gap between the intention and the actual outcome.
Mick Lynch - dubbed “Mick Grinch” by some newspapers - said Christmas starts on Christmas Eve. Richard Madeley said “commercial Christmas” starts at the end of November and early December. There followed an entirely infuriating rat-a-tat-tat about calendars and dates and Madeley piping up that, “I won’t let you get away with nonsense,” and Lynch saying, “why don’t you just interview yourself?” Point to Mick on that one.
However, it is - without doubt - the most painful three minutes of viewing around the strikes I’ve witnessed in quite some time. Unhelpful and infuriating.
There was another dust up this week between Mishal Husain and Mick Lynch on a programme and a radio station I’ve never heard of - Today is so yesterday, after all. Where Madely vs Mick was comical to the point of tragedy and farce, this one had slightly more depth. The RMT boss was asked about declining support for the strikes, and how much money members were losing due to taking unpaid strike days. Replied Mr Lynch: “…[You’re] pursuing an editorial line I’d read in the Sun or the Daily Mail or the Telegraph […] I find this a shocking stance that the BBC will take. You are just parroting the most right wing stuff you can get hold of on behalf of the establishment.”
Let me say that, regardless of the guest, to attack the question being asked by an interviewer is usually an admission of being somewhat on the back-foot. Of course, some questions are unhelpful, some are ill-considered, indeed, some are 41 seconds long, incoherent, rambling, narcissistic and unhelpful, but interviewers are asking questions for a reason - they are interrogating, questioning, inquiring and trying to help listeners or viewers learn or understand something.
I am not here to back or sack or attack Mick Lynch. Indeed, he is regularly a fine communicator - this is what makes him attractive as a guest. He goes up against interviewers repeatedly and almost invariably knows far more than those asking questions of him. He is clear, and direct and punchy in his communications - which is helpful as a listener for gleaning information. I just don’t think attempts to invalidate an interviewer’s questions is helpful for achieving his aims nor for any sort of constructive, satisfactory outcome from an interview.
Of course, I enjoy analysing the nitty gritty of such conversations and interviews. I intend to learn from them - both in terms of style and substance. I wonder how much this registers on the public support scale. A YouGov poll for The Times showed 33% of the public blame the government for the looming rail strikes. On the podcast I host, called Whitehall Sources, Kirsty Buchanan - who was an adviser to Liz Truss at the Ministry of Justice and Theresa May when she was Prime Minister - pondered a couple of aspects of strategy for consideration: the government needs to get on the front foot when it comes to strike action and that the government does empathise with workers who want a pay rise in the face of inflation which is running at 11.1%. But they need to communicate that more effectively.
We are all in the same cost of living storm, even if we are not all sailing in the same boat: some are more financially protected than others. Striking workers are looking to enhance their life prospects financially, and, in most cases, in terms of their working conditions. As principles, surely we can all empathise with those. One thing we should never empathise with, though, are interviewers who take 41 seconds to say what these 11 words communicate: “Your strikes will put hard workers out of business. Justify them.” There you go, Richard: you’ve got it made.
Really enjoyed reading this article - I am a bit of a politics geek and often found the style of interviewing to be fascinating (Matt Chorley did a cracking doc on Sunday politics programs a while back on Times Radio, it was brilliant).
The key here is what is the intention of the interview/interviewer? Is it to debate, or is it be a trending topic on twitter? If it is the latter the content of the interview will be short on detail and high on hyperbole - it is the Piers Morgan playbook - be confrontational, be the centre of attention. The guest is a prop or stooge for the interviewer to promote (shout) their views.
R4 Today used to be the standard bearer for political interviews - however I think that comfortably sits with Times Radio now. An interview that allows the listener to come away with a greater level of understanding than they had before - that, for me, should be the intention for any national interview. Test the mettle of the guest with calm reasoned debate - not shouting for 4 minutes about when Christmas is.
I have no idea how any producer pulls together any politics-led shows - it must feel like herding cats between getting the questions out to the guest, hoping an answer deviates from the scripted lines all in the space of gnats fart before hurtling on to the next segment.
Your articles are always worth a read and thought provoking, thank you!
Thanks Calum!